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hello, wanting to get up to speed with Slack and looking forward to consulting the video materials! Joe and Niccolo, reassuring to see you (as ever) so thoroughly on board:slightly_smiling_face:

:wave: Hello, team!

hi all!

hello everyone! looking forward to the session. greetings from Newcastle-upon-Tyne UK

does anyone know if the paper proceedings are published yet?

danke Andrew!

Is this the place to post questions regarding the poster `Cross-platform and Cross-reality Design of Immersive Sonic Environments` ?

Hi @contact, we have a poster session in about two hours. There is also the #installations-crowdscapes channel for an installation based on the tool discussed in this paper. We could talk about it there as well.

thanks, I am just playing around with the browser tool and have a few questions, plus questions about the direction of the project/ related ideas

Awesome. I am happy to answer any questions in the Crowdscapes channel or during the session later today.

. Sonic Sculpture: Activating Engagement with Head-Mounted Augmented Reality (Paper 8) Charles Patrick Martin, Zeruo Liu, Yichen Wang, Wennan He, Henry Gardner   . VR Open Scores: Scores as Inspiration for VR Scenarios (Paper 21) Raul G.M. Masu, Paulo Bala, Muhammad Ahmad, Nuno N. Correia, Valentina Nisi, Nuno Nunes, Teresa Romão   . Augmented Piano in Augmented Reality (Paper 80) Giovanni, Santini   . Ambulation: Exploring Listening Technologies for an Extended Sound Walking Practice (Paper 4) Tim Shaw, John Bowers   . A Playful Approach to Teaching NIME: Pedagogical Methods from a Practice-Based Perspective (Paper 28) Enrique Tomás

hello, greatly looking forward to this - check out the papers referenced above!

Good morning everyone!

Good morning everyone!

15 minutes to go to our Paper Session number 9: AR / VR / Practice

Zoom: https://us04web.zoom.us/j/77913859631?pwd=NUZRb2IwTnpMRlB0TWd3NHNjMFlNUT09

Good morning @john.m.bowers!

guess i'd better put some clothes on....

Good evening from where I am :grin:

we're live now!

1 minute to go.... on your marks.....

wooo here we go!

Great installation, I would love to have been able to explore it. Wonderful presentation

@charles.martin What is the future of this installation, will it be running for the public in the coming time?

Thanks @vincze!

Nice project!

Thanks @vincze

Just in case you need external captions: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=NIME240720

QUEStION: I just wondered about the size of the installation, it somehow seems it could be much bigger, how complicated is this to have several virtual spots in a room that you can activate/interact with?

How restrictive would phone-based Ar have been for this @charles.martin? Thinking about making work like this available to everyone without a hololens..

@charles.martin Cool project! There's a Csound plugin for Unity you can check out for more advanced audio processing without doing everything from scratch

HoloLens is too expensive... I guess we'll have to wait 2-3 years for mainstream headsets

@charles.martin @berntisak also a ChucK implementation called Chunity

Please remember to tag the author when asking a question!

this is so cool! would have loved to try it given the chance

and you can use `libpd` with it, too, no? Surely you could use `heavy/hvcc` to integrate (a subset of) Pd in Unity.

project Norhstart might make AR cheaper https://developer.leapmotion.com/northstar

The claim in the conclusions "We have built the first interactive sonic artwork that uses head-mounted augmented reality to engage with a public sculpture." is quite big. Not all of these kind of works get published about globally.

I imagined, but thanks for your answer :slightly_smiling_face:

yes, would love to know more :slightly_smiling_face:

I bet mass adoption won't happen until Apple release theirs

Second presentation is starting

phone is cool, but you get an even *smaller* window to view the work through---the head-mounted system can also give you binaural spatialised audio which you wouldn't get with a phone

there are actually a couple of libpd bindings for Unity: https://github.com/LibPdIntegration/LibPdIntegration. https://github.com/patricksebastien/libpd4unity https://github.com/hagish/kalimba etc.

@charles.martin @yichen.wang Great work ! Have you looked at using a world-in-miniature 3D metaphor which could allow you to interact with the spatialized sounds without having to move around the sculpture ?

Yeah I accept that we were focussed on the academic discourse here @marije, and maybe that sentence was put undiplomatically. I guess this goes to the point of having a potentially longer editorial process in a journal etc, where there would be time to drill down on novelty, and whether that is important for the contribution.

actually using faust2unity with faust you can compile directly an unity plugin. However, doing sound development for devices like Hololens is not that straightforward. I personally ended up coding my own synth directly in C#.

No we have not! That sounds like a cool idea! Do you have a ref or something? Could be relevant for @yichen.wang?s work going forward!

You can reach me by my email: :slightly_smiling_face:

Sure - I agree it's certainly a different experience in terms of immersion. I ask as I've worked with hololens a bit, but it is so restrictive to actually exhibit! Great work though, thanks for sharing it.

Yeh, the 'world-in-mininature' 3D metaphor' sounds really cool! Would love to know more :)

@raul.masu Very appropriate choice of piece for this project, Maderna?s Serenata per un satellite!

there's a good amount of literature , starting from https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/223904.223938

and more recent : https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/pres_a_00018

oh cool!

Great to hear about Umberto Eco in a NIME context! Really enjoyed the historical and philosophical framing of Raul?s paper.

we were actually starting work on a homegrown synth toolkit https://github.com/digego/DisunityST

from Andrew Sorenson (creator of Extempore)

Loved it too!

@raul.masu Interesting work. From time to time philosophers and others have debated what it means 'to follow a score'. Are scores instructions? Definitions of the range of acceptable performances? A representation of an ideal? Each of those give a different status to the score and a different idea of what it is to follow it. Has your bringing together of the score and VR enabled you to have new insights on this question?

good morning.

Thanks @florent.berthaut! I'm more than happy to further discuss these with you if you are interested:)

Yep, for this project, I would have liked to use libpd, but we had some hurdles with it and just went with the simplest unity sound sources.

@raul.masu very interesting project! do you think VR scores will serve as a tool for both professional and aspiring musicians?

Yes of course !

@mark.durham Have you tried Holoens 2? My current work is using holo2, the experience is way better than holo1.

yeah, definitely agree with that.

score as human-human interface - as defined by @raul.masu - even if the two persons are the same person - nice!

thanks @michael.lyons!

thanks @vincze!

@raul.masu How did you find non-musicians engaged with the score notation? Did they have any prior experience reading music notation?

@raul.masu are you planning to give artists some kind of SDK / interface to create alternative pieces of aleatoric music for your project?

Thank you Lamberto, being Italian it was quite an obvious choice =)

Future is to hopefully work with sculptors and collaborate on something bigger and better, we've been very limited in what we have been able to do since January (when the video was made), so it's a bit uncertain when things might be "normal". At the moment I think it would be out of the question to share something like a hololens between visitors. :confused:

Third presentation is starting now.

Thanks!

Sure, it?s a really good and early example of opera aperta, and musically it works too!

@raul.masu will you work with more open scores in your VR environment like Moderna or even something more strict like Boulez for example? I missed part of the presentation, is it mostly for musicians or people who can read music or for anyone? In which case disregard the other part :slightly_smiling_face:

I think that in particular this kind of work: an engagement about a particular work of public art, tends to be very local, and artists engaged in it, may not have a practice of publishing about it, in an international context. At the same time, it can be assumed that these kinds of technologies are picked up by artists to develop works with.

Hi Noam, Thank you! i would say professional and non musicians. Professional can use this paradigm to compose targeting non musicians, and non musicians can have a different way of experiencing aleatoric music or open scores in general. I would not say that this iscan be a tool for novices. I hope this answers.

thanks you :smiley:

No, not yet. That's good to know. We may try another iteration of the project - which you can see in the next posters session. The situation with Covid put everything on hold there...

not really, this is why adding the visual feedback of at what point of the pattern it is can be useful. (this emerged in our evaluation). I'd like to have another version with graphic score to compare.

It's in my whishlist, but unfortunatly not on top of my to do due to other projects :smiley:

yeah, I understand. There was no plan for public showing from the outset?

The main point of this paper is to propose the new paradigm, so other score can be used :smiley:

totally agree

Very interesting work Giovanni ! Have you tried using finer hand tracking for example with a Leap motion, which would give you fingers positions, or with a depth camera which would enable the use of other body parts ? What do you think this would change in terms of interface design for the virtual components ?

Very nice work, Giovanni. I can see a lot of potential in his work but I?d like to hear from him what are the next steps. Further developments? Or is it ?ready? to be used in his own practice maybe and develop musicianship with?

Nice work! I like how you arrange the virtual interfaces in close proximity to the keyboard to make it natural to switch back and forth. Given the latency of VR tracking and the limitations of collision detection you mention, what is your experience as a player in trying to play rhythmically using both the keyboard and the VR interface at the same time?

it was in our mind, but we didn't have a firm plan.

Hi great work!! Bravo - seems really complex - Q: how is the perception of depth, having the googles and all, and also how intuitive it is with the precision of the activation of the interface.

Definitely agree with Giovanni, collider detection is still a big issue in AR ...

@giovanni love it! i'd like to know the feedback from the musicians, did they find it easy and can they seamlessly switch from the keyboard to VR interface? did anyone reported any dizziness?

our colleagues at CSIRO (https://research.csiro.au/ielab/) have been working with XR for lots of problems, and I've been trying to push some of them into an artistic direction with sound as well -- this was the first step on a longer agenda I guess :slightly_smiling_face:

fourth presentation running!

ah Teleoperators and Virtual Environments -- our uni actually *doesn't* have a subscription! It keeps coming up because one of our co-authors (Henry Gardner) had a paper in it some years ago that I'm aways trying to download lol.

@tim.shaw love this

@tim.shaw @john.m.bowers The soundtrack here seems edited, or you were walking in a very rich soundscape! Great sounds, btw!

@tim.shaw @john.m.bowers -- striking and great way to present -- really enjoying this paper!

lovely presentation

@john.m.bowers @tim.shaw I'm interested in the stylistic choices you make when processing sounds - do you aim mainly try to emphasise and uncover what is already around you, or do you allow yourself freedom to creatively engage with the sound processing?

Yes reminded me of a horspiel!

Journals and subscriptions ... :wink:

@john.m.bowers how is the relation to Christinas Kubisch electrical walks ? http://www.christinakubisch.de/de/arbeiten/electrical_walks

@tim.shaw @john.m.bowers thank you! I enjoyed your presentation and great to know more of your work in walking.

@john.m.bowers thanks , there is comercial product https://www.thomann.de/at/soma_ether.htm

@tim.shaw @john.m.bowers wow.. brilliant. i could listen to this all day long. Would it be possible to extend this to include to enable the deaf or hard of hearing to enjoy this experience? the data are very rich, incredible.

Hi!!

thanks @benedict.gaster glad you enjoyed

@tim.shaw @john.m.bowers @noris - great question - also probably therapeutic relevance for people with mobility issues - commissioned walks!?

yes, its edited. but only for this presentation, in the actual walk the editing happens in the moment 'as it were'

thanks Charles, I enjoyed your presentation to, looking forward to checking out the paper

thanks Raul, enjoyed yours as well

last presentation is ongoing!

as @sallyjane.norman said, check the paper and let me know if you have any other questions.

great to see you here @alarcon.xime! thanks...

@noris @sallyjane.norman @tim.shaw Agreed. At the end of the paper we make some remarks about 'aesthetic interfacing' and how the experience of Ambulation emerges in juxtaposing many things (site, technologies, the walking route and what is encountered, the different layered and mixed sounds, etc). I think that might make an interesting conceptual starting point for working with deaf and hard of hearing individuals or those with visual or mobility impairments. For example, rather than compensating for impairments, create a rich enough multi-sensory, multi-element environment to support many different juxtapositions,

yes! I have one, and I have also made some universal de-modulators which do a similar thing

Thanks very much. Its not something I have explored but it would be interesting for sure. Let me know if you have any possible ideas.

@enrique.tomas: thanks for the great talk! I love your approach, also by making/using an app to work from, to then being able to go working with tangible objects. Question 1: How did you create room for the playfulness within your classes? Would like to hear more about your recipe for playfulness, think that is really important. Second question: did you investigate more apps for working with similar to MobMuPlat app? I'm very interested in those kind of apps that read your mobile phone sensor data and be able to control sound with those easily. Thanks you so much!

@weixler Coincidentally (or not!), we know SOMA well. Indeed, one of us is doing some work with them. We have worked with Ether and also with our own DIY all-band receivers as well as plain inductive coils. There is also Martin Howse's 'detektor'.

@enrique.tomas Love the kettles with phones!

@enrique.tomas and the mouse orchestra!

saucepan phone is one of those "why didn't I think of that??" moments!

thanks haha!

@enrique.tomas Thanks for the presentation, very interesting methods. I wondered how much in-depth can you go on the music itself. What are the musical topics that emerge in your course? I'm asking this as you mention that many (not remember how many) of your students do not have a musical background.

Cool, is there a DIY tutorial for such a demodulator?

@enrique.tomas This reminds me of the pedagogical studies by Gideon D'arcangelon (later with Jamie Allen) at NYU on the ITP NIME course. Yet you have not cited their articles in your paper as far as I could see. Are you aware of their work?

@enrique.tomas great work!

@enrique.tomas fantastic! I particularly like the unplugged interface activity. The variety of the instruments is really striking. Is there any more online documentation about the individual projects?

@enrique.tomas all credit to your commitment over time, and to your generosity in sharing these insights and practices!

@enrique.tomas very inspiring approach to learning and teaching NIME, thank you!

@enrique.tomas -- thanks for pointing out the time it took to tune this ("3 years"), easy for some of us (i.e., me I guess) just starting up NIME courses to feel discouraged when things don't work right away.

ok you just partially replied to me, but if you can expand a bit I'd love it :smiley: what is organizing sound, and why they do not compose?

Thanks Enrique, very useful and inspirational. This is another sort of work that I?d like to see more of at NIME! I enjoyed the ?playfulness? and the ?unplugged? aspects that are somehow related to @leprotto.giacomo make-believe design method.

@enrique.tomas I really like your separation of "composing" and "organising sound", that's useful.

@enrique.tomas Fantastic project, thanks! I just have to ask a "gesture"-question. :grinning: What do you really mean by "gesture"? Are you really focusing on the meaning-bearing components of the (inter)action, or are you more thinking about the fact that they move with the devices?

@enrique.tomas your teaching looks so engaging and fun for students! My question is about contextualising the students' work with the wider field - the works they produced seem quite "out-there" (which is a good thing!) in comparison to ones presented in NIME and similar communities. Do your motivate your students to avoid the "typical" look of DMIs, or did that emerge naturally?

Great presentation - thanks!

@enrique.tomas reminds me of Kristina Andersen's approach, that she outlines in her PhD thesis Making Maginc Machines

@enrique.tomas well I find organising sound and composing are the same :stuck_out_tongue: isn't that what John Cage said?

@enrique.tomas playfulness in teaching: create a safe environment, and showing how communicative this can be

this one is fun and quite easy to build https://ea4eoz.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-amazing-portable-all-band-receiver.html

great paper, will be checking it out :)

cool! Thanks!

A nice recent paper on Kristina's work is from CHI 2019: "The magic machine workshops: making personal design knowledge" https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3290605.3300342?casa_token=4L1M5b0DL2sAAAAA:HrtfQuapPb3v6YhO_Naopayl2cvJL3KkaOgoi8DmRjaytK7gh7-al-t-DdyRFOyoUNZbRxmMU5w

absolutely, I am also inspired by Kristina´s work

:coffee:

@john.m.bowers @tim.shaw Great stuff (apologies for the pause, but I wanted to look at the paper too). Presumably, if one were in the mood, an interesting situationist framing of this approach could be made?

@leprotto.giacomo has also used Kristina's methods for making fictional NIMEs. From DIS 2019: "Making up instruments: design fiction for value discovery in communities of musical practice" https://qmro.qmul.ac.uk/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/64885/Lepri%20Making%20Up%20Instruments%202019%20Accepted.pdf?sequence=2

@manolimoriaty My students come from a artistic background, so I think for them making making non-typical interfaces is normal....

My students come from a artistic background, so I think for them making making non-typical interfaces is normal....

@enrique.tomas Many folks in HCI and design have talked about the value of playfulness. Bill Gaver's work on ludic design is an example. Do you feel that exploring playfulness in the specific context of NIME pedagogy gives you novel perspectives on play? Or design? Or pedagogy? You could definitely push the methodological-conceptual implications of your work into those related fields if you wanted to. Good stuff!

hi! you mean at the re-thinking embodiment exercise?

Great work @enrique.tomas. I was wondering if you provide any instruction/constraints to students in terms of the musical/sonic style/output, or, is it entirely open and exploratory?

I think it just helps a lot art students.

thanks! I think we can also learn a lot during teaching. At the end, I could observe 95 design processes. That´s a lot!

It is Cage´s definition of organising sound more than composing music. It is the same, but the access to the material is quite different and it helps art students a lot

yeah, especially because nobody is sharing their teaching methods

I would love to hear more about yours!

thanks Ximea!

sorry Ximena :slightly_smiling_face:

thanks!

thanks! hope they are useful for the community!

@o.green @tim.shaw Of course! Done it! Tim and I have a chapter coming out in an edited collection arising from one of the Walking's New Movements conferences in the UK where we talk about our collaborations under the banner of 'mythogeosonics' - which is our bend on psychogeography, mythogeography, psychogeophysics and all those other situationist and post-situationist doings.

Yes @o.green I haven't made this framing formally but of course it could be done. The Dérive and Debord dont get a mention here but they will one day!

haha me too, just couldnt believe it in the class. Six students played a 5 minutes piece!

Hi Michael! Unofrtunately I am not aware of a paper explaining their methods. Could you please give me some link or paper title?

hi! well I have all the concerts recorded. Would you like to get some material?

Ah, of course you have :smile: I look forward to reading such a thing.

Yes

thanks Alistair!

I think it is radically different to talk about ludic methods or playful methods, at least from Maria Lugones´ definition: _"an openness to being a fool, which is a combination of not worrying about competence, not being self-important, not taking norms as sacred and finding ambiguity and double edges a source of wisdom and delight"._

In my course, playfulness disolve many of the students´ issues with NIME: playing in front of others, respect to technological limitations, on-stage communication, etc.

hi Cagi. Not really, they are free to use any aesthetical approach. The exercises are co-created so the students decide in groups how to approach every exercise.

And sorry that I typed wrong your name Cagri

Yeah, you know I am also following Giacomo´s work.

it's great to see how his work is developing, since I first met him in Genua :slightly_smiling_face:

:slightly_smiling_face:

Con gusto! Mil gracias! Hace muchos años (1999) enseñaba multimedia en Colombia, en la época de los CD-Rom, y tenía un acercamiento similar al tuyo, donde los estudiantes diseñaban sin computador, eran instalaciones de todo tipo, y pensaban la interfaz y los procesos interactivos. Después traducían esto a la interfaz de pantalla multimedia, que era lo que teníamos. Eran estudiantes de pregrado de Comunicación Social :slightly_smiling_face:

During this exercise I do not talk much about "gesture". My intention with this exercise is that students understand the different modalities of embodiment that we can establish with an object without having to explain the theory behind it (that would be non-practise based and it would bias the exercise). Students naturally find diverse modalities from designing relationships with the objects (a smartphone running MuPlat in this case). So I guess the answer is yes, I focus on the meaning-bearing components of the (inter)action. But not from the perspective of gesture.

Aha, I see, thatnks!

claro, ahora es lo contrario, podemos prototipar tan facil que los alumnos van rapido a pensar en sensores y poco en lo que realmente quieren hacer. Ahi tenemos que introducir nuestros metodos....

Yeah, you know all that already. :slightly_smiling_face: Looking forward to reading your paper, it was very inspiring work. Really a good example of using technology but putting artistic thinking at the forefront.

thank you very much Enrique

@john.m.bowers @tim.shaw Great work! Your concept of "aesthetic interfacing" strikes me as being particularly relevant to NIME. Care to elaborate on this concept further here?

@enrique.tomas There should be a couple of papers by Gideon D'Arcangelo (and later Jamie Allen) in the NIME proceedings, easily searchable. Gideon started teaching a course at NYU ITP from 2002 and kept it running for most of a decade, later in collab. with Jamie Allen, who took it over for a couple of years I think. I'm not sure what happened to the course after that.

Personally, I have had a long term trouble with the concept of 'interface' especially when people try to locate a thing between two other things (e.g. user and system). I like to shift from interface to interfacing which brings into focus how people often bring things together, juxtapose things, and do practical work playing one thing off against another. This, for me, goes hand in hand with an ecological approach to action. You look at the ecologies that things are embedded in. The phrase we essayed in the paper 'aesthetic interfacing' points in the same direction. The aesthetic character of Ambulation emerges out of lots of things rubbing up against each other: "the site, its sounds, how the performer records them, the juxtapositions he performs, how the audience?s attention has been shaped, and so forth" - rather than there being a single spot where you look for the interface and its aesthetics. Is that helpful?

Maybe an idea for a workshop on sharing teaching methods at next years NIME?

Yes, thanks. I really like the move from the object 'interface' to the action 'interfacing', along the lines of musicking (Small), humaning (Ingold), etc. As you know, I'm also partial to the explanatory power of the ecological approach to action in this context. We develop a similar line of thinking in our presentation as part of Paper Session 12 this afternoon.

Plug duly noted! Indeed, Small and Ingold are fellow travellers here. It's a move that's common in quite a bit of thinking that I like. From representation to representing (take that cognitivists!). We do have to worry about the Object Oriented Ontologists though.....

@enrique.tomas there are many existing pedagogical papers out there. the problem is what is a 'NIME course'? e.g. see my CMJ paper from 2017 on pedagogy with young children and CMR in 2019 related to teaching improvisation with 'NIMEs'. neither explicitly frame it in NIME language but both are highly descriptive of pedagogy using 'NIMEs': https://www.pariesa.com/publications this might be a factor of why you are not finding the literature.

via Kristian Andersen: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=zxjXtEcAAAAJ&hl=en

thanks for the question @p.stapleton - I am also cautious of the term 'interface' but have thought a lot about the idea of a microphone (and related listening technology) as a kind of interface between the world and the listener. I guess that is one thing this piece tries to explore.

Just watching Enrique's video now. Nice. I was just wondering if it would make sense if the slide on minute 3.30 would make a distinction between "practice-based methods" and "practise-based methods".

@p.stapleton instrument as constellation of affordances. Thanks Paul, that's worth getting up at 4am for...

..

whoops, thanks Giulio - will now switch!

Thanks SJ, and sorry to hit you with my multiplicity of the self metaphor at 4am!

@charles.martin what would you say is the ?central philosophy? / higher level featureset approach of Disunity? e.g. Chunity focuses on being able to publish standalone and tightly integrated applications, e.g. URack is focused on a ?central performer broadcasting over the local network to many viewfinders? model. What gap does Disunity try to address?

I think in these situations it?s better to use the academic writing to ?tease out? some knowledge from the artistic practice that can be used to make the work extensible, so that others can build upon what you learned by doing the work, rather than trying to claim you were the first to do something. After all, even if you?re not the first to try something, you?re always the first to see something with your own hyper-local perspective (so that?s new), and you can always try to abstract it and situate it to a broader viewpoint (so that the writing-of-and-outside-the-work is useful to others)! Better to focus on ?how did you do it in _your own_ way?, maybe?

Good lord, today I learned that in the UK, ?practice? and ?practise? can mean different things. I thought practice was just the US spelling of practise! :upside_down_face: (https://www.grammarly.com/blog/practice-practise/) What is the distinction between practice-based and practise-based methods?

@charles.martin I love how the locative mapping also compels people to view the sculpture from multiple angles. I'd be excited to see a sculpture that was designed alongside the audio elements. How do envision the hololens management outside the lab setting?

Designing the sculpture and audio in tandem might allows present solutions for your tangible interface avenue.

Hi @lja as I said above it's early stage work (11 commits) and I think it's not quite fair to compare it to those other options right now. The central philosophy today is "explore building a synth toolkit for rapid prototyping of XR applications within our research group".

That said, if it gets to the stage of having a system worthy of publication, you can expect a cite on the chunity paper :slightly_smiling_face:

Great, writing the email soon :slightly_smiling_face:

Haha fair enough! I?m just curious what you hope to do with it is all! :slightly_smiling_face:

@matthew.mosher Thanks for your kind words:) My current research project with Charles is extending this locative audio augmentation to tactile sonic experience on sculpture. I?m really excited to see how this goes!

@yichen.wang Oh cool, that's good to hear. Let me know if you're ever looking for collaborators!